Friday, March 11, 2011

Race? The Final Showdown...

You sadden me in your asking of the following questions, among others:
“If we accept your theory, then what role DOES environment play? Any?”
Any reader — actual reader — of what I’ve written here so far knows that I have repeatedly stated that environment/nurture is a given. I’m holding the door open on nature to have a role, which you refuse.
Amid your argumentation, you wrote a paragraph directly to my point:
==(begin quote)
As far as your example in step three is concerned: IF that was indeed a fact, which I don’t allow without credible reference, it would, as you posit, be only a sensitivity…not a measurable behavioral pattern spanning your “race”. Especially not transferable to the wholly measurable behaviour of the ashkanazi. But again, this is academic.
==(end quote)
I chose the most well-known hormone (special chemical) produced by humans — testosterone — which is also the one whose affects (aggression, increased hair growth, etc.) are widely known and widely accepted as fact. You need a “credible reference”? I summon John McEnroe to shout, “You can’t be serious!” You already turned my own words against me in regard to references to any scientific announcements, and yet your concluding paragraph suggests that we’re done “unless you have some solid science to offer.” I shake my head. And you say that such a fact as I proposed in Step 3 would not be “a measurable behavioral pattern.”
Are you kidding? Why not measurable?
I can measure behavior patterns in my family. I can measure easily, for example, the lawbreaking behaviors. Patterns and differences are obvious. Despite the fact that we were raised by the same parents, NURTURED the same (as much as my lower-middle-class parents could do so), we have behavioral differences that are measurable. I have no doubt that some of the difference is in our DNA and some of it is due to nurture — nurture from having different friends, teachers, experiences, etc.
There’s no reason why we can’t extend that measuring to extended families (with one common ethnicity), and thus to ethnicities. Granted, as we extend out, we involve more variables that may muddy the water. But that is a part of all research — variables and potential confounds always loom. I’ve done research in a university setting, and I’ve been a guinea pig in some university research. I understand the worth of it and the bullshit of it.
But we don’t have to be university researchers to be useful observers and catalogers of human behavior. Anybody can do it. And some people are especially good at it. (Yes, this too is a measurable behavior.)
CAUTION: I am about to give examples. I know that they are arguable as to nature/nurture causality. We know nurture is involved. Perhaps some weight from the examples will fall onto the nature side of the scale?)
Many keen observers of human behavior throughout recorded history have said that there are racial differences in behavior. Some famous ones are Martin Luther (in the 1500s), George Washington (and Thomas Jefferson and Ben Franklin), Abraham Lincoln, Mark Twain, and more. We’re taught to dismiss their words and deeds whenever they touch on being “racist” or horror-of-horrors “anti-semitic.” But they were intelligent people. Wise people. Maybe they were wrong about some things, maybe not.
Martin Luther wrote in the 1500s, in German. So, we’re forced to weigh translations. His book “On The Jews And Their Lies” is freely available to read on the Internet. I’d never read such a dense frequency of the word “circumcision” before nor since! ha ha. But he seemed to know his subject very well.
The Founding Fathers — and nearly all of whom I like to call the very many “Founding People” — weren’t stupid. They created the best system of government for a republic yet known, I think. Sure, it needs a couple of adjustments! Anyway, they were concerned about race/ethnicity. They talked about their doubts (to put it mildly) that various races/ethnicities could productively get along in one country. They were students, scholars, of history. Their quotes are easily searchable.
Mark Twain (real name Samuel Clemens) actually defended jews. My view on him has changed over the last two years, from hero to something less, not yet settled. He had lived through the Civil War, traveled the world and socialized with many leaders, had close friends at the top of criminal corporations (such as Standard Oil) and government. And then he wrote the article, “Concerning The Jews.”
In that article, he claims a superior intelligence in the Jews. Now that’s DNA. Whether Twain was right or wrong, he’s talking about something inborn. He cites many examples of Jew cleverness, etc., in separating people from their land and their money. Twain avoided assigning anything criminal to it (which is a reason I’ve demoted him).
The Twain article “Concerning The Jews” includes mistakes about history and also absurdities that if offered now would be flushed as obvious propaganda. An example is this: “The Hessian Duke … did not select a Christian, but a Jew — a Jew of only modest means, but of high character; a character so high that it left him lonesome — Rothschild of Frankfort.”
Supporting my assertion above related to intelligence, etc., I quote Twain here (several paragraphs):
“In the cotton States, after the war, the simple and ignorant negroes made the crops for the white planter on shares. The Jew came down in force, set up shop on the plantation, supplied all the negro’s wants on credit, and at the end of the season was proprietor of the negro’s share of the present crop and of part of his share of the next one. …
“[In Russia,] the Christian peasant and villager stood no chance against his commercial abilities. He was always ready to lend money on a crop, and sell vodka and other necessaries of life on credit while the crop was growing. When settlement day came he owned the crop; and next year or year after he owned the farm….
“In the dull and ignorant England of John’s time everybody got into debt to the Jew. …
“For the like reasons Spain had to banish him four hundred years ago, and Austria about a couple of centuries later. … Since there was no way to successfully compete with him in any vocation, the law had to step in and save the Christian from the poor-house.
“… Ages of restriction to the one tool which the law was not able to take from him — his brain — have made that tool singularly competent; ages of compulsory disuse of his hands have atrophied them, and he never uses them now.”
Yes, Twain was a humorist, and thus anything he said or wrote is vulnerable to attack as not serious. But if you read enough of him, you know what he wanted people to believe. It’s interesting to note that when Twain was near death, his sole surviving child (Clara) married a Jew, thus giving a lot of control of Twain’s papers and legacy to a Jew. And then Clara wrote a book also claiming that Jews have superior intelligence. All of that is why, IF Twain ever wrote something flat out against the Jews, I think we’ll never be given a chance to read it.
(But we do get to read Twain’s writings that are flat out against Christian beliefs and behaviors, and against Russia’s then Czar and family. Jews then overthrew and murdered the Czar and family, and Jews continue their bloody opposition to Christianity. Interesting, eh? Oh, there’s much more. I’ll let you in on my current thinking: Twain was a dupe, a coward, or a secret jew. That’s the choice. And I’ve crossed out dupe.)
Here’s an aside — not about Twain. I read on a harshly racist site about the idea of who has invented most of the inventions we appreciate in developed societies. Wow. Electrical and mechanical inventiveness. 100% nurture?
Every human has a mix of strengths and weaknesses. One of my weaknesses is calculus. I aced the levels of math leading up to calculus, but then I hit a brick wall. That was in my first stint in a university. Several years later, not wanting to accept that I actually couldn’t learn something, I acquired a math book and tried to grasp calculus on my own. I couldn’t. However, I don’t think I’m an inferior being. I have strengths. And I know that people who can master calculus have weaknesses.
But what if we find that weakness in higher math is common in one or more groups of people? Such a thing has been argued recently, but in reverse. We have heard the boast that some or all Asian groups are better at higher math. I don’t know if it’s true. But I have no reason to say it can’t be true. It fits with what I think is possible. It fits with what I am unable to label impossible.
We’re all different, either a little or a lot. Some people want to twist that into superior/inferior. I don’t. Criminal behavior is where I draw the line. Criminals, no matter of what race/ethnicity or belief, are to be punished under the law. Even if patterns are proved by racial association, only the individuals who have committed the crimes are to be punished. Others remain innocent and free. Simple. Fair.
* Of course DNA affects behavior. How can’t it?! We are electro-chemical beings. Naturally produced electrical impulses in our bodies are conveyed efficiently or not partly based on DNA-based cells and structures. Naturally produced chemicals within our bodies affect our behavior — as do chemicals we eat, drink, or otherwise absorb. These are facts.
* We can be taught to kill. For example, hunting. Many millions of young people, especially boys, are taught to hunt and kill birds and deer and then eat them. How many of those millions don’t have the stomach for it and return to relying on the grocery store for their meat? Many. What’s the difference between those who quit and those who remain lifelong hunters? We may find the difference occurring among siblings, but I’ll bet it’s more likely to be found between groups. I’ll bet we could find a pattern to it.
* What kind of people can stomach a lifetime of cutting boys’ penises and drinking the blood? Is that 100% nurture?
* When I became an adult, I began a process of self-critique. I figured out what my standards and morals were, and I’ve applied them with great though imperfect consistency. As an adult, I take responsibility for my behavior. There are basic wrongs that I’ll never allow myself to do. Not everybody does — nor is capable of doing — the self-critique and self-control I’ve just described. What kind of adults do we see on the national and international stage committing the most basic wrongs, year after year and decade after decade, and continually justifying their wrongful actions with lies? Is that 100% nurture?
Timster, I don’t expect to have moved you one bit. Do criminal jews teach their ways to their children? We both answer YES. Is there a genetic aspect to it? As you already suggested, we may “just agree to disagree.” If you reply to this installment by me, yours will be the last word on this subject. I see nothing to gain in my further input on it. If you’d like to move the discussion onto a different topic, such as strategy or some other, let me know.
Thank you! I enjoyed it.
James Laffrey


Yes, I guess this should be the final installment on this issue.  It appears that we have chosen to address one of those tricky subjects, like I dunno...abortion...that everyone has a valid opinion about, and cannot be swayed one way or the other.
Perhaps I have been a bit stubborn toward your position.  If that is the way it is being read, I apologise...that doesn't solve anything.
Let me address a few things that you put forth in your final rebuttal.
I am at a quandary here on this site...have been since I started it.  I seem to be caught between several different groups of people.
There are the bible-thumpers/scripture quoters..."Lord save us from your followers".
Then come the full-out racist white-supremacists.  I get a huge amount of the point that I had to post my "mission statement" to the side, over there...explaining that I belong to neither or these two groups...nor do I welcome discussion from them.
I of course get the hasbara folks.  We all do out here.  They are a nuisance...but you get used to deleting their commentary....and you trudge on.  Thank goodness, also...I get those readers that not only understand what I am trying to say(and I'll be the first to admit that I don't do this very well), but agree wholeheartedly.  I'm sure many come go away scratching their heads as well.
Then...I get readers with very much the same attitudes and opinions that you have.  Intelligent, well educated folks with open minds, eager to expand their experience by reading and research.  Its a joy to know that I am read by even a few of these.  Humbling indeed.  But, these are the ones that I fear the most.  I see them falling into an abyss...and I can't help them.
You do me an injustice as don't play fair by quoting Mark Twain back to me.  He is one of my favorite authors of all time.  But there was no need. I have read every word he ever put to paper(and yes, even the most HIGHLY edited latest publication...I know Twain...I know when he is being edited).
Many wise people have tread that tenuous path of racism...and I forgive them this, for it is a sign of their times...and without their efforts(that do not address the issue of race)...we would be lost.

Although I will not quote nor reference specific scientific study being done as we speak about this, our choice of a highly volatile subject, I would have you look at recent research in the human genome project.  This study is producing some amazing and unexpected results.  For instance...many previous theories about the influence of DNA molecules on even totally physical anomalies, such as breast cancer...that everyone had accepted to be hereditary, are proving NOT to be.  It has also been discovered that we simply do not possess enough of these molecular instructions to dictate even a small percentage of the human qualities that were heretofore ascribed to them.  For is now understood that we only have twice the amount that are in the simple fruit-fly.  So, to me this says that the jury is very much still out on the issue of DNA markers and their influence on we as a species.  And definitely not something that can be used as a measuring stick for behavioral genetics.  At least not something I  wanna hang my hat on.
But to me, it goes beyond these academics, as I'm sure you have seen. I don't really care to live in a world where I am judged by my genetics.  I don't care to be grouped by what I would consider "jumping-the-gun" junk science, and being told that "there is no such thing as a good______" (fill in the blank...jew, christian, nigger, arab, name it).  And that is where this leads IMHO.  This predeterminist bent is license, at this early stage of medical research, for the very mentality of the two groups I mentioned above. No, I will not "hold the door open"  as you put allow nature to enter my mind on this subject.   Once you open that door, like Pandora's box, you won't be able to get it closed. It legitimatizes racism...out here, and in one's own mind.

Well, that's me.  This has been fun...if only for us(grin).  I would enjoy continuing this later on the related subject of strategy.  Let me know your thoughts.  And keep blogging!


The non Jew with a view said...

You said: "I don't care to be grouped by what I would consider "jumping-the-gun" junk science, and being told that "there is no such thing as a good ....." (fill in the blank...jew, christian, nigger, arab, name it). And that is where this leads IMHO.

Timster, I believe that I might be one of those people to whom you might be referring. But, you see, my slant is somewhat different and has nothing to do with elevating Gentiles above Jews or of clearing a path for their imminent extermination.

I believe that Jews are a race first and foremost for all of the reasons I outlined in response to your post on my blog.... (and a while load of other reasons!). But for myself this has little to do with assigning racial superiority to my group (ie Gentiles) as a consequence of this determination.

I identify the wholly negative traits that I see prevalent within Jews to their race because from my own personal observations and interactions with these people, they will often behave in an obtuse and destruuctive manner even when they have not been culturally raised as Jews.
I once knew a person whose parents hid from him the fact that he was a Jew until he was in his early 20's. The man recounted his early life being brought up completely unaware of his Jewishness and in recounting his story, I was struck by how Jewish in his "unjewish knowing" he actually was. The things that mattered to him and had always mattered to him were as Judaic as they could possibly be - money, power, status, influence a sense of victimhood. He constantly believed that he was being oppressed and persecuted by his work colleagues - and this was before he had even discovered he was a Jew.

But, I do have a theory on Jewish behavior which incorporates the race idea yet places their behavior within a frameable context and it is this:


The non Jew with a view said...

Continued from above ...

Askenazi Jews (the Jews of whom I refer when I speak of racial Jews - any person can convert to the religion Judaism but that does not make them racially a Jew - just a convert to the religion) have for centuries practicised endogamy
which I believe has contributed to the prevalance of Aspergers Syndrome within these people (which is also a genetic disorder)

It is already well-known that certain genetic diseases have arisen as a consequence of generational inbreeding and are therefore more common among Jews, the most prevalent being Tay-Sachs Disease. However (and I wish that more research could be conducted into this area), many stereotypically Jewish traits are ABSOLUTELY CONSISTENT WITH ASPERGERS SYNDROME.
Aspergers is ordinarily to be seen in very high achievers - individuals such as professors,politicians, lawyers, doctors, etc
One online commentator has theorised that Asperger's syndrome goes some way to explaining the adverse responses that they garner from their neighbours and hosts and I really feel that she really is on to something. Although her article is somewhat sanitised to appease Jew groups - I agree with the major points raised within her/his article below.
Posted on Hubpages - Author Unknown

"This is my theory on Jewish, Asperger’s Autism and why this group has been ostracised in history. I do not have any evidence of this and would much appreciate if anyone has some research to either agree or disagree with this hypothesis.

People with Asberger’s Autism are renowned for high functioning ability. The condition is categorised under the ‘Autistic Spectrum Disorder’ umbrella. Problems occur with socialisation, empathy and communication. They may appear clumsy, inappropriate in their behaviour and difficult.

A direct approach seems to help as they have a very ‘logical’, black and white, way of thinking ...

Impairment can range from mild to severe. However, the genetic payoff for this ‘disability’ is the ‘ability’ to perceive the world logically, cleverly and imaginatively. This is the high functioning side of AS. (Consider the number of Jew scientists and mathematicians)

Continued again...

The non Jew with a view said...

Final installment...

Many of the greatest ( I had to disagree with her word "greatest and would replace it with either destructive or subversive) people in the world have been Asperger-Jewish. Example of those speculated include Sigmund Freud, Albert Einstein and Karl Marx. All had very logical minds and high IQ’s. They all appeared to have problems in socialisation and were lone-thinkers and writers.


The author ends her article by suggesting that Jews may be owed an apology by the world if it is established that by nature, they are social isolates. I disagree with owing them an aplogy. I did not ask them to inbreed, but the potential prevalance of Aspergers in Ashkenazi Jews seems to be the underlying reason why Jews are arrogant,blunt and forthright in their social skills, are incapable of admitting when they are in the wrong, repeat past mistakes over and over without the ability to learn which have been destructive to others. This may also explain why seem to conflict with the rest of the world and why they regard themselves so pathologically as victims - also a well known Aspergers trait!

Well that is my two penny's worth. But for a better understanding of Aspergers it is best to go away (for those not in the know) and research it. You would be shocked at just how many Aspergers traits fit hand in glove with the Jews- seriously.

So I say they are a race and genetically different - See again the Yeshiva study:
and this is due to centuries of inbreeding has led to a propensity for Aspergers to develop within this group.
My answer is not white or any other form of nationalism - but avoidance - since there is not "cure" for Aspergers syndrome.

Anonymous said...

While reading these many words about Jews, one seems to get caught up in what they wish us to do. While we're all discussion, using an over abundance of words to attempt persuasion of our individual points, they have controlled us and will continue, having we goody two shoes simply voice ourselves.
Reading both of you has been a hoot and think both possess mighty intelligence, seems fighting each other counter productive. The old myth words are mightier than the swords is too late. We are the underdog and need to fire our sling shots at someplace that will cripple them forever. Working together on what you both agree upon quite simply, two heads are better than one.
Just a simple man's thoughts.
A poor man who grows poorer monetary and more hopeless everyday. G G
Thanks for allowing my humble opinion and best wishes two the both of ya!
Please do not take this as an insult.
Where is that? I ask you both to use your intelligence to lead us. Instead of wasted words and space cut to yhe heart and let's go for the jugular!!!

Timster said...

NJ - Wow. Thanks. I would call that a buck-three-eighty's worth!
Interesting theory about Aspergers. I had only read that comparison once in passing.
Thanks for you thoughts...although I tend to disagree, they are obviously well-thought concerns.

Timster said...

Anon@2:32 - Thanks for following the conversation. No insult taken. Your point is well made.

JamesLaffrey said...

Hi. I enjoy reading all the comments here and on the previous installments of our discussion. I've said so much already, I don't feel a need to say more, as yet.

Oh, btw, I posted our full discussion as one page on the =party site.

TO Anonymous@2:32 G G

Me, too. No insult taken. You'll find a devotion to action, specific action, on the =party site.

The non Jew with a view said...

Shit - Just read through my post - apologies for all of the typos and errors. I wrote the post rather quickly and failed to check what I had written after the event as I was in a hurry at the time.

Yes other people have disagreed with the Jew-Aspergers analogy - they simply believe them to be sociopaths!

Incidentally most of the high achieving Jews I knew in the past did have Aspergers - diagnosed and all!

Whether you believe them to be a cult or I believe them to be a race (which I will never change my mind on), ultimately, they will always remain a problem irrespective of where they derive from.

Timster said...

NJ - Not a prob. I do that all the time...get caught up in a thought...write it post it...then the "oh shit" moment comes.
I have been doing some reading about Aspergers since you wrote that. I can see where you are coming from on the subject.
Oh...BTW, I wasn't referring to you(or had I even read your "no good jew" thingy when I wrote that article). Sorry if it seemed that I was directing it towards you. An "oh shit" moment again(grin).